In Conversation: Grace Anna Brahimy
I met Gracie- who you know as Grace Anna, the beautiful voice behind ArtMuse- about two years ago in early 2023. We met for coffee in New York’s Financial District after a producer friend of mine referred Gracie to me. I remember wearing an LCD Soundsystem t-shirt, and we talked music (my native language) for a while. I felt at ease with Gracie and knew we’d get along really well. When she told me about ArtMuse, I thought it was brilliant. A project devoted to spotlighting overlooked women felt vital and long overdue, and I was excited to support something that so clearly champions women and insists on their rightful place in the canon, in the culture, and in the broader story we tell about the world. I couldn’t wait to get to the drawing board with her and figure out how to bring it all to life.
Over the next two years, Gracie and I would talk nearly every day about our work, art, music, life, and, of course, Timothée Chalamet. She’s an absolute dream to work with- super organized, an excellent communicator, always kind, and quick to credit me as her creative partner. I’m incredibly grateful for our friendship and the opportunity she’s given me to be a part of such important, beautiful work.
In the conversation I’m sharing today, Gracie and I discuss when her passion for art history began, how she started ArtMuse, and what she hopes to see for women in the world of art and beyond.
I hope you enjoy this conversation with Grace Anna Brahimy as much as I did.
Erin: I came along when you had already established quite a lot of Art Muse, and I'm curious to hear a more about the origins and when you got the idea. So let's start with that. When did you first get the idea for Art Muse?
Gracie: I studied Art History all through undergrad. I fell in love with Art History in high school, actually in my senior year, and knew I wanted to study it in undergrad. In fact, I took so many classes that they actually told me I had too many credits in Art History and had to start taking other topics..
Erin: Like, “You need some math..”
Gracie: Yeah, exactly. And then I went to Grad school and continued to study Art History, which we can get into later because I know you had some questions on that, but after Grad school, I was trying to figure out my next steps. I applied for PhD programs and I was admitted into two programs and I was very, very close to going to UT Austin for their Art History PhD program, which is a great program. Everyone there was so, so lovely, but there was just something inside of me that froze when I had to make the decision. And I guess it was maybe an intuitive inner knowing that was like, this isn't quite right for you. And the PhD is hard. You're studying for seven-ish years with very little pay. After you get your PhD, you have no idea where your job opportunities might be. You might get a job as a professor in Iowa or anywhere. And even those jobs are extremely hard to get. So, I guess I was at a point of having this immense passion for Art History, loving to learn, really wanting to teach in some capacity, but not feeling like any of the paths, the traditional paths felt right for me.
They felt very limiting, very exhausting, and so I was sort of at a loss in terms of what to do.
Erin: When was this, by the way?
Gracie: I was accepted into the program right when the pandemic started, which I think was also part of my fear in moving to another state, obviously. So it took a few years of kind of percolating, “what am I gonna do?”
I had a few years of not focusing as much on Art History and doing other things, but it was probably a few months before we met- it's a long story, but I got the idea to do a podcast. It was through a meditative reading someone gave me where they said, “I feel like you're going to do something with audio and storytelling,” and I was like, “I have no idea what this person is saying.” And then a few weeks later, I was like, “A podcast!” That is literally what they're describing. And the more I thought about it, I was like, yeah, a podcast is the perfect way for me to learn, to share, to teach it.
It's such a, in general, such a freeing medium. You know, anyone can make a podcast. Anyone can listen to a podcast. There are podcasts for all sorts of different topics, for all sorts of different people. There are very conversational podcasts, there are educational podcasts. So, that feeling of being so constricted before felt so lifted when I had this idea.
Erin: That's so great.
Gracie: So that's how the idea for a podcast started. And then I knew I wanted it to be on Art History, so I started to listen to a bunch of the Art History podcasts that are already out there. And that was a few months, to be honest. I listened to all the big ones and was trying to get a sense of what styles I liked and what type of podcast resonated with me, and I was listening to this podcast called Art Holes, which I don't know if you've heard of.. it's a very funny premise. It's this comedian and he retells Art History, having had no background in Art History. That said, his episodes are extremely informative and well-researched. He says it in a funny way, but he had a four-part episode on Caravaggio who I wrote my Master's thesis on and have studied for like 15 years, and I was like, “this guy gets it.” He has said every detail of Caravaggio's life for four hours, which was amazing.
Erin: That's awesome.
Gracie and I visiting Virginie Amélie Avegno Gautreau- aka Madame X- at the Sargent in Paris exhibit at the Met in New York.
Gracie: But as I was listening, he mentioned Fillide Melandroni, who of course we have an episode on, and that she was this model that modeled for him. I knew all of the paintings that she was in, and yet I had never heard her story. I had never learned her name. As he was describing that she was this courtesan and she was involved in all these love affairs and the rivalry between Caravaggio and, the man that he ended up murdering. I was like, “my mind was blown.” I didn't even consider that she could have been a real person.
Erin: And you'd been studying this for years.
Gracie: I've been studying this for years. I’ve written long papers on a few of the paintings that she's in, and it was never taught to me. It also never occurred to me, so my mind was blown from there. I was like, “I wonder how many other paintings of women are real women.”
Erin: That was the moment.
Gracie: That was the moment.
Erin: That you realized there’s a whole world that we haven't discussed, and without them, none of this might even be here. So when was that then?
Gracie: 2021, I would say.
Erin: Okay.
Gracie: And so, and it, and it took a few months for me to get to that idea. Once I got to that idea, then I started thinking of random paintings. Mona Lisa obviously was a big one, but I just started to do it a bunch of research and the more research I did, the more women I discovered, and I mean, you've seen it, but I now have a list of maybe 300 plus women that I would love to tell their stories.
So I just started doing research. I also did want to do research on what was already out there on muses or models. And there are of course some books on it and some great groundbreaking research, but there wasn't really anything like what I had wanted to do out there.
Erin: Yeah, agreed. There's really great stuff about women artists.
Gracie: Yes, yes. Like Katy Hessel.
Erin: Yes, Katy’s great. There's a lot on that. Well, maybe not a lot, but there's some really wonderful, impactful stuff on that. But the muse part: that's the part that, you're right, once you see it, you can't unsee it. Once we started working together, then I started to think about music: “Well where would John be without Yoko? Where would you know Kurt be without Courtney?” You think about all of the women that have such an influence on art of all forms and it's hard to unsee that. So I'm glad you had that breakthrough moment.
Gracie: Yeah, it's totally across the mediums. I'm focusing on Visual Art, but music, absolutely. I remember learning that La Traviata, the opera, was based off a real woman from France, a courtesan of France.. there's just so many avenues you could take with this idea.
Erin: So which steps did you take first?
Gracie:. So, I started to look at what else was out there. There is that book Muse by Ruth Millington. So, that's probably the biggest publication out there on Muses. There's also been some groundbreaking work by Denise Murrell who has focused on black models throughout art history. So I started to see what was out there, but it very much in the beginning also felt like looking at a map and just picking a place, because I would just think of a painting and look into that person.. and so, some of the women in the first season were mentioned in Ruth's book. Some were literally just me thinking about different pieces. Obviously Googling or looking up famous artist models. A lot of people have mentioned people to me, “you know, have you heard about this story? Have you heard about this woman?”
So it was sort of organic in that sense. I wouldn't say it was systematic in the beginning.
And then I started just compiling a list, and it's a long list. I started organizing them into themes as best I could. So, the first season is the masterpieces, the big artworks. And then from there, organizing groups of women that kind of fall under an umbrella. Before I met you, I started with the greatest masterpiece, the Mona Lisa, which really blew me away because it is arguably the most recognizable image in the world. Everyone knows the Mona Lisa. It is probably the most- definitely the most- famous painting in the world, and yet none of us, and myself included, again, who had studied Art History for 20 years- had no idea that she was a real person.
There were rumors that it was Leonardo da Vinci and drag or this, or that, and I still get that sometimes when I say, “My first episode is on Mona Lisa,” I get maybe one out of 10 times like, “Isn't that Leonardo da Vinci?” So that was the first one I started with.
I researched, I wrote a transcript and I attempted recording it. I knew nothing about audio recording. I'm very lucky that my husband is in film, so so he had a microphone and he had some sense of audio technology, I had zero. So for, anyone starting, I absolutely have so much empathy for how daunting it can feel.
Erin: Yeah, I totally agree. Even if you know all the other aspects of it, you get in front of a microphone, or even just Googling microphones. It's overwhelming. Or which software to use, which platform- it’s a lot. So I applaud you for taking that leap.
Gracie: Yeah, exactly- so many other gadgets, like I have my popper stopper, all of the cords that connect your microphone to the computer. And I will say too, for anyone starting that has a Mac, I have great gratitude for GarageBand. It is such a easy and beginner level program to get into recording. And even editing. I tried editing in the beginning, I tried putting in music and removing breaths and that is definitely where I hit a wall, but I was able to sort of do it in GarageBand. But I think in the development stage, one piece of advice I would give, and one thing I have to realize is what are my strengths and weaknesses and what do I love doing and what sucks my energy?
Erin: That's a really important exercise to do. “Am I enjoying this?” Not only are you good at it, but are you enjoying it? Because if you're going to invest time and money, you should enjoy it. Think about the parts that aren't exciting for you, because there's going to be some things that you're not good at, but you're like, “I'll figure this out, it's not worth outsourcing.” And then there's things that, you know, you’ll never figure out. So you have to go through that exercise and filter out what you want to hold on to and what you don’t.
Gracie: A hundred percent- and that's where I was at. Like I probably could have spent a year, you know, learning the ins and outs of audio editing. But I really realized that I want to be pouring my energy in researching and writing and learning these stories. That's what was giving me fuel and I was feeling very bogged down by the audio aspect. And that's when we met.
Erin: Yeah. So that was about two years ago. Right. And so, at that point you had developed this beautiful website, the brand- the foundation was done, solid. You had a whole season mapped out. I think even several seasons mapped out. You were like 90% there, you just needed technical help. So that's when I came in. I guess that was February of 2023. But I don't think we shared an episode until November. We decided to several months to give you the space you needed to record and research and get it right. Our focus has always been- and I appreciate this about you and this project in general- is not just trying to push out stuff, because it really requires a lot of time for you to research. You're writing 20 page research papers every other week. You know, it's a lot on you and I know the mental capacity you need to research, and think, and write these things nicely, and then you go stick yourself in a closet for like seven hours to record. That’s a question I have too- has your process changed at all in the last two years?
Gracie: Every aspect of it, including our work together, has just felt like it flows so much better. In terms of my research, I have a much better sense of how to process an immense amount of information for a lot of these women. I'm reading three to four books sometimes. I have a really good system in terms of note taking, turning that into an outline, and then using that outline to be what I base my transcript on. The recording takes a while because I'm, like you said, I'm reading 17 to 20 page papers, and of course you're not going to get every sentence and every word on your first go. So it takes me, I've gotten it down now to about three and a half hours. In the beginning it was taking me like five to six. So, everything just gets easier with time. You really learn a lot, every step of the process.
And then in terms of our editing, I think like the past. Many episodes. I have very few notes.
Erin: I got in a groove too.
Gracie: You got in a groove. I think we understand the process together so much more. Everything has just become so much more seamless. And I know we're still learning, we learned a lot this season, so I'm sure it'll continue to get, even more in flow. But, you know, it takes time to figure these things out.
Erin: I think I've cut down my time in half too. My process has evolved; I know what to look for now. I don't think I even used to use the transcripts that much, and now I use them a ton. I just know what to look for now. I've gotten such a feel for your style and I agree, it does just take time. But I'm glad that you've have some time savings now too.
Gracie: Definitely. Yeah, absolutely. And I think my voice and my style has really developed, so I think that makes it easier too. I think you can just- looking at the transcript- get a sense of like, okay, this is when you know she's leading into the next big thing.. And so, every aspect of it gets easier over time.
Erin: Yeah, for sure. Okay, so we're near the end of Season Two, which was focused on Social Sensations. What does season three look like? What are the things that you want to focus on for the next year?
Gracie: I have some really fun ideas about seasons. Like I said, kind of grouping these women under categories or themes that I find interesting and, to me, a more obvious one, just having read a lot of these stories is Artists, because obviously a lot of the women in paintings are artists themselves. So that's definitely an idea for the future.
But I wanted to actually find a few lesser studied themes to start with. So the next theme for season three that I'm starting to prepare is on Performers. Women- muses or artist models- who were also performers. And that can range from singers to dancers, to musicians, to actresses.
And so that is the route I'm thinking of taking for season three. Part of my reason of wanting to do performers next is because it allows me to incorporate a bit more diversity into the season. Western Art is overwhelmingly white centered.
Erin: You don't say.
Gracie: Exactly. Surprise, surprise. And so, it has been hard for me to incorporate diversity. Each season one and season two has had a woman of color, there are some women who are queer or are assumed to be queer. Maybe we can't definitively say. But that said, it is hard to incorporate diversity as much as I would like to. So performers, there's a lot of women of color that I can incorporate. There's a woman named Marianne Anderson, who was one of the first black female opera singers active in the 1920s. Josephine Baker was a famous dancer whom Matisse did a whole series of paintings on.. So that was my other intention behind putting the performers season next. It’s going to be amazing, from the little preliminary research I've done on each of the women, their stories are just phenomenal.
Erin: And opera is close to your heart too.
Gracie: And opera is close to my heart as well. And then, another more niche topic that I'm thinking of doing perhaps after that is Writers. There are a lot of women that were poets or authors in some sense, and I think that's an interesting one.
Erin: Gosh, there's so many ways. It's what I love about this. That's what I'm saying: once you see it, you can't unsee it. It's everywhere. All the women that inspire so much work, so much art, so much culture and history. We’ve learned so much about these women that were making political decisions on behalf of countries or regions, and there's a lot of influence that these women have had across all aspects of life. So I love the seasons and the niches that we're getting ourselves into here.
Gracie: Absolutely. And I've thought of having either political leaders or royalty being another feature season too, because you're right, some of the stories that in season two in particular, Madame de Pompadour and Emma Hamilton, have huge political implications. Who knew?
Erin: Yeah, I know. I wish you could see me when I'm editing. Sometimes I'm just, like, yelling at the screen.
Gracie: I'm like that too. When I'm researching, I feel for each of these women and when I'm in the depths of research and writing, I am constantly in awe. I cannot believe what I'm reading. My jaw is dropping. And I don't know these things when I start. I’m just like, “She sounds like she's important..”and then I start researching, and I'm like, “Oh my God, this story is a thousand times crazier than I could have ever imagined.” And I really fall in love with each of them. Every time. It’s like I'm in their world, because I'm spending so much time with them, in a sense.
Erin: I get attached.
Gracie: I get attached. Yeah. Some more than others, but yeah, there's a part of me that really loves them, It’s like dating different people.
Erin: I have to ask, any in particular that you feel close to?
Gracie: I really loved Audrey Munson. She has a wild story. She is not a perfect person, but her story really stuck with me. I also have the honor of getting to see her almost every day because two of her statues are outside the Brooklyn Museum, which is my subway station. I pass it almost every day. And so every time I pass the statue, I say hello to her. And being a New Yorker and knowing that her statues are all over the city.. that story really stuck with me. And both of us felt very connected to Emilie Flöge.
Erin: I love that one.
Gracie: Yeah. That story, and her connection with Klimt just strikes something deep.
Erin: A lot of these stories are tragic and a lot of sad things happen. I'm just going to say that now. Some of these, you're just like, “Oh no, this is awful.” That one, to me, I have always had this just feeling of like, a big, warm, golden blanket wrapped around me. I mean, sad things happen. Of course, there are wars and things happening that are terrible. But yeah, that one I thought was really, really beautiful too. She was just cool as hell. I want her dresses.
Gracie: Yeah. She really deserves an exhibition on her influence on fashion.
Erin: Yeah. Okay, so that's where we are now. We are going to take a little time to wrap up season two, and then think about season three and prep for that, and launch that later this year. Outside of the podcast, have you envisioned anything else for Art Muse? How else could Art Muse be embodied?
Gracie: The great thing about ArtMuse is I think it could take many different forms. The most obvious one is a book, because I've already written the transcripts for every episode. I’ve probably already written like a thousand plus pages if you add everything together. So the bare bones are there.
Erin: And the references, the pictures, the supplemental material that goes along with it. The family trees, the portraits- you have all of that material. You have stacks and stacks of papers and pictures.
Gracie: Yeah. So I think if I just had some help, obviously editing it for a book purpose, sifting, editing.., I know images have very specific copyright rules. But yeah, I think the bare bones are there. And again, talking about my strengths and weaknesses, that is something I'd probably want to find someone to help me with. But I think that's a very seamless next step, which will hopefully come together.
And there have been some exhibitions on the model. Denise Murrell did one at Columbia a few years ago on the black model. But, I would love to somehow curate an exhibition where the point of the exhibition is to go in and enter these women's worlds and learn about their stories.
There’s so many from there. They each deserve a movie and a Netflix series.
Erin: You’re so right. That's the great thing about it. There's so many ways this could go. I love it. There's such a future for this, and I think there's just such potential for it to reach so many people and shift the way we think about these women. Which actually brings me into one of my final questions that I want to talk about.
The reason you started Art Muse- and this is a bit of a status check -what was your goal and how do you think you're doing in achieving it? Right. This is what's on the website: The goal is to shift our notion of the muse from a passive participant to the driving force of inspiration behind these works of art.
And there's lots of other wonderful things you say about that, but it kind of comes down to that- is to shift the way that we see these women. How do you feel like that's going?
Gracie: It’s going better than I ever could have imagined. I told myself if I could shift just one person's perspective.. and I will say, quickly going back to the limitations of Art History, I studied Caravaggio, who's a very well-studied artist, and I remember one time in graduate school a professor told me when I approached him about my thesis idea, which he didn't read, he told me, “you know, everything that could be written about Caravaggio has already been written, so pick a different artist.” And of course that made me feel terrible. I also think it is such a limited way of thinking about art because there's boundless ways to see then that's why I love Art History: two people can look at the same painting and see completely different things, and there's limitless ways to interpret works of art. And so in that sense, maybe someone would say that about the Mona Lisa, that everything about the Mona Lisa has already been said or written about. But if I can contribute in any way to shifting- very famous paintings that you may have looked at a hundred times- encouraging you to see them differently, then that is such a wonderful thing. And I said like, if I can even shift just one person's perspective or have them look at this painting in a new way, then I've done my job and it's been amazing to get the feedback I have to have people that I have no connection to, leave reviews or reach out on Instagram and be affected by the stories.
And I would just say too, the stories speak for themselves. I think we're doing an immense job and I commend us with the production it, of the episodes and we're doing our best to tell the stories in a riveting way, enhancing them with music. But these women, you don't have to do much.
These women speak for themselves, and I commend them too. They make my job much easier because they live such incredible lives that I think that goal of shifting that notion of the muse is really in the stories themselves.
Erin: I've said this a few times now, but just to reiterate, once this concept gets into your brain and you realize the influence that women have, just in general on the major things that happen in this world, you realize it's everywhere.
Once you hear an Art Muse episode and you really think about this, like, “Oh, wow, who knew all of this about the Mona Lisa?” or Lisa Gherardini, I should say. Then you start to look at all around you. Again, the music you listen to, the politicians that run our lives, everywhere around you look- there's usually somebody behind them, and what's their story? A whole new way of thinking is uncovered.
Gracie: Absolutely.
Erin: And it matters because we give so much credit and focus to the artists and, we could talk for hours about the “man versus woman” aspect of this, but we give so much focus to that and they get all the attention and all the discussion. The women are the ones that we don't know anything about. And it really matters.
Gracie: Absolutely. Yeah. I mean, in science, everyone knows Albert Einstein or, but I highly encourage everyone to look into the story of Hedy Lamarr. She was a beautiful movie star in Hollywood, but she essentially created the technology that we use for Wifi today. She was a genius and has been, as far as I know, very much written out of history. I mean, who knows Hedy Lamar's name? And if you do, it might be for her beauty or films. But yeah, it's an endless, and it's just a different way of, of looking at the world.
Erin: We’ve talked about it a little bit, but any advice for other people on the same path? Whether it has anything to do with art or not, but anybody that's looking to create something like this, what have you learned?
Gracie: Yeah. Well, one thing I've been thinking a lot about, and I know you and I were briefly talking about it yesterday, but it's easy to fall into an obsession over perfection, wanting an episode to sound perfect, wanting the research to be perfect. And to focus on perfection- it makes sense because we live in a world that can feel hypercritical. There's all these different things that can feel intimidating. But my biggest piece of advice and something I'm trying to practice every day is instead of focusing on perfection is to shift towards your passion. If you're following your passion and you're following your heart and you're doing that thing that lights you.. you know, when I write these stories, it lights me; it gives me so much energy and joy. That’s always going to lead you to the place that you need to be.
Of course you want to do your best, but nothing is perfect. No one is perfect. As we've talked about, you learn so much through the mistakes and through experience. Just not letting that stop you and just following that passion, believing in yourself and being open to continual learning.
Erin: Yeah, agree. Comment sections can be brutal. People can be really brave behind their phones or their computers when they're commenting or giving feedback. Thankfully 95% of what we see is like wonderful, beautiful, inspiring things and people are so kind. And then you'll get the few people who say something nasty, and that that can be hard. I understand that for sure. You care so deeply about this work and the people that listen, and I think, ultimately, you care not necessarily about perfection, but about doing justice to the women that deserve it; you want to tell their story properly and you want to do what's right for them and their families, and what they're representing. That's what you care about. It's not like ,“Gracie needs to appear perfect.” You just care deeply about these actual people whose stories you’re telling. So I can understand how it would be really hard to get negative feedback or criticism. But totally agree with you and I think you're doing incredible work.
And I applaud you so much. I see what you pour into this, hours and hours a week, the weekends, you are really, really pouring your heart into this and I'm so proud of everything you've done. I really, really mean that. It's just been really cool. You've definitely changed the way I see art and how I consider women in general. I mean, I'm always been on this.. side of things. I've always been fighting hard for what we deserve. But this has really given such a voice to it that I'm so proud to support and share in any way I can.
Gracie: Likewise. I feel that from you when we work together. I feel that you genuinely believe in the project, and that means so much to me. That comes through in your work that you do, and I genuinely wish upon any podcaster that they could find a partnership like this where each person is doing not just what they're good at, but like we said before, what is their passion? What lights them, what makes them happy? And learning and growing together, but really believing in the project together. I think it would've been so much harder to work with someone who didn't believe in the project or didn't really care about the project. So I would say I'm immensely grateful for you, and I truly see this as a joint thing. It's a joint project. We're partners and I couldn't do it without you.
Erin: That’s perhaps some good advice too. If you are looking for an editor, producer, or somebody to partner with, if you have a podcast or an idea, you don't necessarily have to hire somebody that is totally immersed in this- it could be a very transactional thing if you just need an editor or something like that- but somebody that's mission-aligned and that really does care about not just the quality of the output, but the mission itself can be really impactful, really synergistic. There's a lot of wonderful, beautiful things that can happen. Whether it's one person or a team of people that are really behind the mission, do the research when you're looking for people to work with and see if you know, again, it's not necessarily a requirement, but I think some really big things can happen when you do find more of a partner or people that actually are behind the mission itself and want to elevate that. Not just the tangible product.
Gracie: I couldn't agree more.
Erin: Well, I've got some Alice Prin work to do today. I'm excited for this next episode, it's fun. We haven't done jazz, and I'm like, “Ooh, I get to like find some good jazz era music here.” It'll be great. I love how much variety, which, by the way, people, the podcast isn't just about Caravaggio.. we've done 1960s America, Sue Tilly, who's alive and well.. all different genres, all different areas of the world. I love the little pockets of time that we immerse ourselves in. And Paris in the early 1900s is a fascinating one. So, I’m excited to go there in my work today.
Gracie: Enjoy. She's so much fun. She definitely was one that I fell in love with writing her story.
Erin: Yeah. I’m excited to dig in. I’ve learned so much, and I have a lot of fun doing this, so thank you endlessly for the opportunity, and I just can't wait for all the wonderful things that are to come in the next year and beyond.
Gracie: Oh, likewise. It's wonderful to support each other too, in that partnership. I think when I first met you, too, Kula was just formulating and starting, and you had started working with a few other people, but it’s so exciting and wonderful to be a part of your community. And to watch you grow and to watch Kula grow and feel like I'm a part of that community, it’s really exciting.
Erin: That's all I care about is connecting people and fostering this culture of listening to one another and supporting one another, and just.. yeah, supporting one another. Connecting and having some compassion for one another. That's all I'm trying to do and you're certainly helping me with that. Well, this has been awesome. I know you don't often get to be behind a microphone in this way.
Gracie: Thank you so much. Thank you for this opportunity. It's amazing to talk in this way and I look forward to listening to the other interviews with your other podcasters as well.
